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Pick 6 Couplings – Yes Or No?

A Pick 6 survey - have your say

A lobby is building for the return of couplings in the Pick 6 to put the winning and fun back into the popular exotic.

Couplings were dropped on 9 September 2013.

“Unavoidably, the Pick 6 has gone a bit stale over the years and the combination of couplings, fractional betting and, in more recent times, the first-timer rule has also diminished the bet’s appeal in terms of delivering mega payouts,” said Phumelela Sports Betting Executive Vee Moodley at the time of the change in the rule.

Leading owner and top TAB customer Greg Blank added his voice, saying he wished the couplings rule had been dropped sooner. “This will separate the men from the boys,” he commented.

Greg Blank

Sporting Post reader Richard Ward writes in the SP Mailbag that he would like to comment on Gold Circle’s Barrier Trial initiative. He quotes our editorial: ‘to create transparency designed to boost flagging tote turnovers and give punters the tools to find more winners’.

In my humble opinion the one certain way to address this issue would be to re-introduce the couplings rule for the Pick 6, writes Richard.

It has become almost impossible to win a Pick 6 with a high percentage of carryovers.

Generally payouts are ridiculous amounts and only the  really big punters benefit.

Winning punters make happy punters and  the more people sharing the pool the better  for the industry.

It would be interesting to do a survey amongst a representative sample of punters country wide to find out  what the general feeling is but I am pretty certain that the vote would be in favour of an easier Pick 6.

Ed – Well let’s try it! Have your say in our comments section and we will present the findings to Vee Moodley and request that he comments thereon.

Have Your Say

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146 comments on “Pick 6 Couplings – Yes Or No?

  1. Kamal Ganesh says:

    bring it back

    1. Nancy says:

      Plz bring couples back

  2. Jan Wessels says:

    Yes it never have being introduced as only a few benefit from it it forced me personally to stop playing.

  3. rand bill says:

    bring couplings back in pick six only. but leave jackpot as is.

  4. Leon Smuts says:

    The mega exotic formats needs a complete overhaul to not only bring the fun back for experienced punters but to make racing attractive for a new generation of players. A better format will not only boost pools but will be the most effective place to introduce newcomers to the game. Skilled players seldom leave so the challenge is to introduce a format that will make skills development fun, entertaining and affordable. Racing needs to get this element right and many things will start falling into place. In the mean time bring back the couplings and give the smaller player a chance to share in the pay outs.

  5. hilton witz says:

    No couplings if you find the lesser fancied of the coupling good luck to you and why should others be rewarded by default ..Next punters will want same owner couplings with different trainers..

    1. Editor says:

      A lone dissenter so far, Hilton!

    2. Leon Smuts says:

      Where a trainer has multiple runners with chances or not in a race the coupling rule will ensure that not only the stable connections and a few informed individuals will benefit from a lesser fancy upstaging the more illustrious campaigners.

    3. Graham Hurlstone-Jones says:

      ???? WOW !!……..So when the pool is R 320,000 because everyone has been chased away then it will be all yours with the skill of picking Purple Diamond at 33/1 or Mr Frenchie at 16/1 or Bishops Bounty at 40/ 1 and on and on…..The couplings are not a skill moment…not even the trainers know who will turn up. It is not about being clever it is about allowing more people to share in the pools. The lottery is guesswork. praise singing this format I find strange. The jingle of change in the pocket is what racing is all about, we all dream if the big one but to get there you need small ones….they do not exist any more or are few and far between. I sigh when I see Snaith with 4 horse in a race or De Kock or Tarry. Dont you want to hit the p6 more often like the old days ( maybe you are but you will be the only one I known in recent times….do you know any lottery winners ? its the same ). Horse racing is not skill based any more, its a guess, all form is diluted especially with merit rating rules. After 40 years this is the first week I have not looked at a card….not interested. lets see what happens this weekend.

      1. Basil says:

        Well said Graham , the problem is deeper than just about the couplings although I do believe that couplings should be re instated. Oddly enough I won my first decent P6 when Pas de Quois , the less fancied of DK’s runners , won the Met in the early 90’s.
        This weekend has about R2m in P6 carry overs. Something is definitely wrong.

        1. Graham Hurlstone-Jones says:

          Pas de Quoi was one special horse, triumph from adversity. You bought back a whole flood of memories from that time….. I am pretty sure I won a few bob on him he was 20/1. He won the Met as 7 year old and the Champions stakes a year later, you don’t see that any more. Pas de Quoi would have won the July, I had laid my bets in January of that year, that was the year of Ilustrador……That would have been one of the great races. Cheers.

          1. Basil says:

            Yes Graham Pas de Quoi started at 16/1 and I can’t even remember who Dean’s more fancied runner was. That p6 had the no coupling rule and was 10c and not 1Rand per line and it paid R17000. To me that’s not important as I always follow good horses even when they run at the highest level , but the unfortunate position that P6 punters face is that 90% of the P6 races are Maidens and MR’s of between 60 and 90. That is why there are so many carry overs that even the huge punters cannot win. Let’s be better than the Lotto to enable more punters to have a smile on their faces and win more than R35 if you are lucky to have 3 numbers as racing in days gone by was always more scientific than the Lotto will ever be.

          2. Editor says:

            Peter Kannemeyer was still in charge, Basil.
            Dean took over in 1999

    4. Graham Hurlstone-Jones says:

      Why dont you want to see the P6 easier to catch ?….How many of these monster P6 have you caught since the coupling rule was taken away ? it was not that easy beforehand……I am trying to work out why you think it should be harder for everyone ?
      I have said this before If I tell you that the 20 bags of cement in your car should be taken out and then your car will will handle better so you have a better chance of winning you would refuse ? and your reasoning is everyone should drive with 20 bags of cement….The only reason why the P6 is dying is because bankers dont exist any more and it is random more than skill. Bubble gum racing we call it and it is not worth following any more.

  6. VAP says:

    Other alternatives: Bring back the 10 cents-A-line pick 6. Can take away fractional betting to balance the books. To me, fractional betting is an issue that needs to be reconsidered. 10c quartet too. the lure of winning it all will result in bigger pools. .

    1. WILLIAM MILKOVITCH says:

      100 % VAP …and the same applies to the dying trifecta. Make it for eg. 20,30 or 40 % smallest fraction

    2. WILLIAM MILKOVITCH says:

      No No no ways …no couplings with extra peri-peri sauce, please waiter

  7. Anthony says:

    No Couplings, that what makes the P6 pay BIG

  8. Kevin says:

    yes bring couplings back……. it will result in payouts being less, but winners being more…and more winners mean happier punters…..

  9. Ian Jayes says:

    Couplings in the Pick-Six should never have been scrapped. There is a “churn” factor. More winning punters means more repeat betting. Most punters can’t afford big perms costing thousands.

    1. malcolm says:

      when Mike & Sean & Justin enter 3,4 sometimes 5 horses in a race you can bet all will have winning chances
      Murphy’s law steps in,,….the one you pick runs like three legged donkey…re: Sergeant Hardy & Bishops Bounty ! Now to put all their horse’s in , plus a couple other horses will increase your perm astronomically.. Vee Moodley needs to wake up and smell the Roses…Couplings must come back if
      racing with the public in tow is to survive !

      1. Graham Hurlstone-Jones says:

        Purple diamond did it for Tarry a while back…Sir Frenchie……Bishops bounty was a cracker of a result, My horse did it at 20/1 as well….surprise ??!! there are a many examples of this but it is important to remember that the p6 still paid well with or without couplings before it was changed without our consultation. We have a saying in my industry, “if it works dont repair it but if you have to change something make sure it adds, not takes away”……..its common sense, everyone wins. The non coupling rule has been tried and revenue is dramatically dropping…..some people like it but it is obvious the majority are walking away.

  10. colin banyard says:

    yes ,it gives the smaller punter a chance I stopped playing pick 6

  11. James says:

    No couplings. It’s not supposed to be easy. Don’t be greedy and take fractional bets, you can still win big.

    1. Kamal Ganesh says:

      How about having both options available to the punters.choice will be up to the individual player

  12. Philip Goldberg says:

    Sadly, much of the voice in favour to bring in couplings will not even hear of this exercise.
    Many of them working day jobs and not have time to waste discussing the future of racing.
    You know my feeling, racing needs winners, so bring them back.
    No point in just satisfying the 20 big players in SA.
    For them, we can create a private game.
    They can each put in R50k and get a number. The winner of Race 7 gets the lot. Tab takes their share.
    I will even stir the pot more by saying, I am sick and tired of working out a banker only for it to be scratched at the start. This happens far too often with short priced horses , and I end up with some dog of a tote favourite that can’t walk.
    My feeling, any horse that is scratched after the start of an exotic, PA, Pick6, Jackpot, Bipot, should be an automatic qualifier.
    Remember, the big boys will die, but the game must go on.

    1. Editor says:

      Thanks for the extra thoughts Philip

      1. Roderick Mattheyse says:

        Don’t forget to let the okes in, who inked the wrong number on the form and forget to check their bets.

        Definite no, and as Graham says not even the trainers know – this is horseracing, find your angle and work it – shout it home when it wins – look harder when it loses.

        Pricing Pricing takeout takeout takeout is what is drilling the churn factor(which is over rated in my opinion)

    2. Vincent Tiflin says:

      I agree with Philip on scratched horses at the start. I have had too many bankers scratched at the start. If the favorite is scratched at the start, then it should qualify for the p6. As a matter of fact, any horse scratched after the 1 st leg of P6 should automatically qualify for P6. Leave fractional betting alone and no couplings.

    3. Dino says:

      That used to be the case back in the eighties, any horse withdrawn after the first leg of the jackpot would be deemed as qualified. Rather bring that back to level the playing field

  13. Leon Smuts says:

    In trading we have a nice saying, “don’t be married to a view”. No couplings were tried and initially was successful in generating larger pools but punters disillusionment has been growing and whatever gains there were has been steadily reversing. Change it back and consider a new bet or two that will have none of the drawbacks and better punter benefits for long term growth and better marketability.

  14. Prasheen says:

    Don’t because then the p6 in P. E will always be caught cos all u have to do is put in Smith, Lang, Bremner, Greef and ul catch da p6 and get peanuts they do however need to bring back da exacta in Hong Kong cos they don’t offer us the quinella bet as promised

    1. Graham Hurlstone-Jones says:

      Yes, but you catch it and then you can play more….that is the idea. the lottery is for the big one. The tote money is meant to be shared, its not about a big winner ( its nice to see but not the idea ).

    2. Graham Hurlstone-Jones says:

      I have suggested two p6 one with couplings and one without…….why not ? a vip and a normal one….

  15. Brian says:

    Absolutely bring it back

  16. Fyndraai says:

    Bring it back. We will then not have to study or wonder with which one the trainer is going to win. Furthermore, I think the pools will also increase if we have more clarity on where the carryovers are allocated to. TAB probably earn interest on the monies that are carried over and I am of the view that such monies should at least be made available once a week so that we have a chance of winning it back.

  17. My Frankel says:

    Think of the dying sport. More people will win and return. Nothing wrong with making it easier to win with couplings. Couplings must come back.

  18. Skywalker says:

    Definitely bring it back !

  19. Craig says:

    Bring it back or allow two options same with jackpot. Only trainers or people in the know will win otherwise because they know the correct one

  20. Blue Peter says:

    How about both?. Tick a box on betting slip. Pay in and play.Please consider a change in the PA. 3 runners ,selection must win. 4-5 runners, top 2.

  21. Ian Jayes says:

    Stable couplings should be reinstated. There is a “churn” factor. The more winning punters there are the more money is reinvested. The smaller smaller punter cannot afford big perms. Why make it more difficult for the majority of your customers to play.

    1. Graham Hurlstone-Jones says:

      I am shocked that some people think the coupling rule is a bad idea for punters ??? thats like driving around in your car with 10 bags of cement in the back and someone offering to take them out but you say no because you feel your car must work hard because the bags are there. The person who wants to help explains that if you take the weight off the car it will improve dramatically but you still say no ??? I don’t understand ? As Ian Jaye’s mentions why would you want it to be harder ?…..its not a crossword we are doing. We are testing our skill with form and anything helps and it costs to test those skills. Why have all the horse mates I have known for the last 30 years in SA stopped playing ? People also mention winning big, racing is about winning not winning big. The winning thing allows you to go back to the form and try again for the big one. The exciting part of racing is pitting your skills against the myriad of pitfalls, jockey changes, tote favs changing, tote favs scratched, delays behind the stalls, bad weather, track changes, weather conditions, merit rating analysis ( or lack of ), trainer elects, jockey rides, distance, fitness and finally what is the plan of the trainer. A lot more are using big races for bigger things due to merit rating restrictions and penalties. Sometimes a horse is costly to follow but when racing itself is costly to follow then there is no point, you know when you are on a bad thing. I think the only reason the bottom has not fallen out of racing is because of the die hards but not for much longer. Just like a pole falling it gathers momentum and the closer its gets to the ground it gathers speed and there is no going back, it will crash. The next few p6 carryovers ( lotteries) will define SA horse betting.

  22. Andrew Harrison says:

    Definitely no couplings! Agree 100% with Greg Blank and Hilton Witz!

  23. Chris Swart says:

    Two separate pools.

    You’ll soon see what the more popular is.
    Like the trifecta is easier to catch than the quartet it’s a different bet and more rewarding if you find lurkers.

    They intoxicated the public with rugby, soccer and boxing bets so why not adapt to losing punters to impossible bets

  24. Rian says:

    YES
    Like i said before on Sporting Post, start with 2 pools and we will see quickly were the money goes
    Also make it a R1 unit
    Cant remember Jackpot having couplings

  25. James Daniel Mr. Collins says:

    I am in the camp of do not bring back the couplings. We want to catch the big ones!

  26. nash reddy says:

    Bring back the couplings

  27. 0731664744 says:

    Bring back coupling

  28. Kay says:

    BRING BACK THE COUPLING RULE and it will bring back many more players, I for one will return playing the Pick-6 again. I have given up just as I have given up on the lottery. Racing has become a nightmare and a frustration to most ordinary punters. As previous correspondents mentioned racing need winners and the more people win the more they will play. And Greg Blank, it’s not about separating the men from the boys, it’s more about advantaging the have’s from the have-nots in terms of afordability. It can still pay bombs even with the coupling rule if you can find the lurker that’s not coupled! Can Vee Moodly perhaps give us the figures on how much some of the last few big winners spent this year. Thank you SP for opening up the debate!

  29. jc lee ching says:

    BRING BACK THE COUPLINGS

  30. WILLIAM MILKOVITCH says:

    No No no ways …no couplings with extra peri-peri sauce, please waiter

  31. Zahir says:

    Coupling yes. Investigate the following. Maximum of two horses coupled. Eg. Trainer has 4 horses. Make two choices. Horses 1 and 2 coupled. Horses 3 and 4 coupled. The punter has a choice . Odd number of horses , one horse will stand alone. Need to be paid for my expertise. Times are hard. Ex educator. Go for it Vees. Employ the right people. This eliminates too many horses grouped together. Trainer has 6 horses . Punter has a choice of 3 groupes of couplings. Contact me for further discussions. 0837862891.

  32. Jon says:

    It is now impossible to catch a pick 6 with ridiculous amounts being paid out. You can’t even get a decent percentage so it definitely benefits the richer coz u have to have more money to put in if u add more horses .. BRING BACK PICK SIX Couplings.

  33. Michael Jacobs says:

    Maybe the answer is not couplings, but reducing the cost of the pick 6 to a 50c betting unit. Except for 4 or 5 big trainers in each centre, many trainers enter 1 or 2 horses per race. The big boys enter up to 4 or 5. Then it requires the studying of form. But if the pick 6 is reduced to a 50c betting unit punters can play bigger perms and get better %s. The pick 6 is the dream maker in horse racing, so keep it as such, but halving the betting unit (rand value) will allow the small punter to get a decent bet in.

    1. Graham Hurlstone-Jones says:

      the only reason I play is to see my skill of studying form without spending too much money ? dont we all do that ( R 6 punters )….

  34. Michael Jacobs says:

    The issue may not necessarily be couplings, but the cost of the bet ie. reduce the bet unit to 50c. Except for a few big trainers in the racing centres, most trainers enter 1or 2 horses, only the big boys enter 3 to 4. So the issue is really the form of the winners and not the fact they are coupled. But the cost of a full pick 6 perm is exorbitant and by reducing that cost will allow the small punters to make bigger perms and get better %s. The pick 6 is the dream maker in racing, so let’s not remove that, but bring down the betting unit to 50c and thst might help the small punter.

    1. Editor says:

      We appreciate all the input- will run survey till the end of the weekend and then assimilate a summary and report to Vee Moodley, which will be published.
      So please keep the thoughts coming – and no talking from the pocket after this afternoon’s big meeting!

      1. Graham Hurlstone-Jones says:

        Dont worry it will carry over…..but the no coupling fans will say they caught it and will be happy to keep the status quo for one reason, It is impossible to catch so keep it……with all that cement in the back of the car. 4 fields and maybe 2 bankers still costs thousands for today. Someone please name the bankers…..Putting fields in is guess work ( I wonder how many fields the non couplers put in and what % they get… ). How did it get easier for them ?

      2. Graham Hurlstone-Jones says:

        The non coupling crowd must be ecstatic !! one winner took all the money that we have been putting in over the weeks at Scotsville……and the winning punter had 4 fields….lots of studying there and lots to spend ( I banked Bold respect in a P6 as well and still only got 3 legs ( fields ) …..The P6 will pay a huge price for this and other bets ( I know a lot of my mates have said this is there last hurrah, we did not get close to winning ) ….Well done to the big winner, at least the P6 got taken. I will tell you now you will see a dramatic drop in turnover instantly…….watch. When you look at the results and recent ones as well I really want to know how you can pick some of the winners using form ?? that is directed at the professional non coupling crowd who seem to have improved since the couplings were dropped according to what I read here. The industry will watch it crash and burn before being proactive in any way…..they just dont know. They are all living in the non coupling bubble where everyone has loads and do not have to worry about small budgets………Its dying…..nope its dead.

        1. Editor says:

          Scottsville – 3 coupled winners in Pick 6 ..paid R3,39 bar to just over 1 ticket

          1. Graham Hurlstone-Jones says:

            And herein lies the crux of the matter…..Lottery payout for one and all that pool has gone, that is a lot of R6 bets. This is exactly why the lottery has shrunk to pennies, no one knows a winner or anyone who has won and it feels manipulated anyway. Not worth it. I am happy for the winner, that is well played but it took money to play that bet I am sure. The guys in the boardroom will be doing flikflaks if this was their goal but the R 6 punter has no more change left in the pocket chasing the dream. They will simply walk away as the numbers have been saying for a while.

          2. Editor says:

            Pool was also 10% short of projection- which is normally spot on

          3. Graham Hurlstone-Jones says:

            Watch Ed…that pole is falling fast, Its sad. From what I am reading there is a market for a pure P6 so if Vee is listening if he is the right one, then just have two p6’s we will play them both but we also have the option. They have to stop looking at the shiny numbers in neon, that is not what attracts punters, its the skill of picking the winners and getting rewarded for that so you come back its not science, ask us. Form, MR decent race tracks, jockeys staying on rides, favourite manipulation or perception of, scratched favorites and on and on. A few K once in a while was the order of the day. Punters are not greedy they are testing there skill. That is what gets us going…….and champions, heroes…..right now there are none. The results and payouts bare that out. They have changed the narrative and no one realized. One minute we were happily banging along with competitive exciting but not such big pools all of a sudden it went Boswell Wilkie on us with all payouts moved to the weekend extravaganzas ( P6 carryovers ). We dont want loads but it would be nice…..They could do this tomorrow…its a win win…try it before all the pools are gone and no one is left…..they are leaving.

          4. Graham Hurlstone-Jones says:

            Also a 5 out of 6 pay out….if the big pool is not hit it gets shared with 5 out of 6 tickets. That means no carryover but lots of people with lots of change ready to try again…..That would keep punters flying back….yep. Get rid of the razzamatazz payout carnivals and keep the punter winning with choice and a share of the pool, after all it is our pool. You wont need carryovers, the punters will fill its boots with this idea…..make the coupling one have the 5 out of 6 and the non coupling P6 can carryover for those smarty pants….that could work…

          5. Rian says:

            If you included scratchings you would have found the Spies , Drier and Crawford winners and shared the pool and been a winner

          6. Editor says:

            Have a loook at the qualifying numbers:

            P6: 9x9x15x4x6x1,6,10,18

          7. Graham Hurlstone-Jones says:

            Bingo…and you get lots of winners coming back…..that was the way it was. Now the non coupling elite are rejoicing in their elite winner ( I think not ).

          8. Editor says:

            Todays winner..
            F X 9 X F X F X 6 X 1
            Cost R2800 odd …how did he do it..?

          9. William Milkovitch says:

            Mr Ed,

            This is how I did it (1) banker Hastag Strat (see my tip on your website) ( 2) 4-7-9-12-13-14 (3) every horse except Di Me and Top Mast (4) 2-4 -9-10-12 and 14 (5) 1-3-4-6-7-9-12-13 (6) Sentido, Waywood and Minnoloushe Venture

            so 1x6x14x6x8x3 =12096 @ 1 %

            Pure luck — couplings or not

            Regards

            William

  35. John Mansoor says:

    I’m no big punter and love playin my Pick 6’s.If I’ve found the lurker amongst the couplings then why share the dividends with the gutless who only include the stable fancy. Finding the unfancied coupling takes hours of studying and cross referencing, the fractional betting affords the pick 6 punter the means to include more options. No Coupling In The Pick 6 please.

    1. Graham Hurlstone-Jones says:

      Not gutless mate……broke. Me and my mates ( all in there 60’s just in case you need a reference of the experience involved who dont play anymore ) have spent hours going through stable mates for years. There is a reason why there is a stable elect with the stable jockey. That would be like backing Botthas over Hamilton….yes it can happen but who would you put your money on each week. I do not know any one who can out think the stable itself, not even the stable. My horse has won at 20/.1 beating Carry on Alice……no one saw that coming. The punting game is dying but hey keep it up….the pools will,soon be like the lotto…..pennies. I would love to see your record of hitting lurkers, everyone talks a good game. I spend enough time studying form that does not hold up continuously so to add the couplings seems like a win win for everyone. I hope you keep finding the lurker but it cant be that often with all the carryovers…….

  36. Danjay says:

    Yes bring it back….we dont have the money to spend like the big punters do…the only winners here is TAB…..so bring it back….couplings all the way….

  37. James George says:

    Vee Moodley is not interested in what the ‘small punter’ says or wants.He is there to make sure punters spend more so that the pools grow. Phumelela has shareholders who want a bigger return on their money and Mr. Moodley is in his position to make sure that happens.
    Why oh why would he bring back couplings thus allowing the punter to spend less and thus having smaller pools.Remember this “Many of our customers have said that only knowing the approximate pool a few minutes before the off hampers their play,” said TAB boss Vee Moodley.

    “These customers tend to base the amount they spend on the Pick 6 on the actual pool size, not our estimates, and to encourage them to spend more we will guarantee minimum pool levels for major race meetings.”
    And by “These customers” he does not mean the R 50-R200 Pick 6 punters who keep racing going day in and day out by betting in the smaller centres

    1. Leon Smuts says:

      Finding lurkers is not an easy exercise and well done to those who do. The dream bet exotics are too severe on the punter and the pools not growing enough to attract the ignorant money. What justice is there in finding a few lurkers only to be thrown by yet another one arriving. The current dream bet format is hindering growth rather than aiding it and if growing pools is the objective I fear that the operator is failing it’s mandate. More creative bets exist already and will get the job done but this will require the operator to acknowledge others and work together with people outside of the organisation to maximise the opportunities that exist.

      1. Graham Hurlstone-Jones says:

        Absolutely right.but they wont listen. Its bit like Zuma, just keep taking as much as they can before it all falls apart, leave the masses struggling and then run for the Jooste hills. The lurker thing is easy, 4 fields and two bankers it seems. As for the other lurker did you not have it in your other P6 ? …..The bankers are rock solid…..its easy. The cost for 1% at Scotsville with 4 fields was about R 800 and you still needed Bold respect and Warwood to win……who has that money every day, every week. That is why you need people winning so they come back to test there skills again…… unless you are a non coupling fan then you have a skill of note. 4 fields is not skill. The punter who won outright I take my hat off to him but there are thousands out there who have had enough of the guessing game it is now. The pools have to be shared for the punter will leave….Todays P6 at Scotsville will prove a defining point in racing…..The Ed has just mentioned it.

        1. Rod Mattheyse says:

          the first leg had danger signs all over it, so wide play was necessary, the winners of the other legs had to be included, unless you had a strong view on a horses chance and bankered.

          most times it comes down to bet structuring – and the courage to go with your assessment of a race – this inside information angle is way over rated.

          the market is too small to pull off a coup

  38. DOC says:

    No, no couplings.

  39. Graham Hurlstone-Jones says:

    Hey ED I am wondering with some comments how the P6 gets carried over so many times. It seems a lot of people catch it according to some comments. I am definetly giving the game up I obviously have no idea any more. I will say it you as well…..if I tell you take the 20 bags of cement out of your car to make it easier for you to drive would you turn round and say no !! ” you must put 20 bags in your car ” ?? I dont understand………I am confused as to why people say keep it. The game is dying and like a pole falling, it gathers speed until it is unstoppable…that pole has almost hit the ground. i did say in one comment that this batch of carryovers will define SA betting but maybe not with the pro anti coupling crowd, they must be loaded by now or were already loaded. The P6 is dying and this weekend will just add another nail….watch. The few who support no couplings will have there own pools to themselves and they can tell how they spent hours studying stable form and go against the stable elect and stable jockey and caught the 3 lurkers on the day and left out all the favorites…….jeez those guys are good. I give up. It is not about winning big…it is about winning and being relevant for the next meeting. The no coupling crowd are out of my league.

  40. Quintas says:

    No couplings

  41. Rian says:

    Looks like its clear in our so called referendum that the Bring back brigade is deep in the red to win this one

  42. Rod Mattheyse says:

    I missed with magical wonderland today…. she is a horse I punt with closed eyes… owes me nothing…. no fields were necessary… One of two bankers lost… the other waywood won…. had magical wonderland won it probably still pays 1.5 m…. close but no cigar…. still a good day as all the plays except magical arrived…. Red Al win Fresnaye win Dragon Power place Mile high place Waywood win Storm clipper win and cleaning up the pool in the Singapore mile quartet pool and a tcket n the second jackpot quickmix.. it made up for the unmitigated disaster trying to get doubles into Waywood yesterday… tomorrow a half day of rest with a bet to nothing on Mojito Magic …. cowboys don’t cry…. maybe the baseline at Wimbledon should be 3 inches wider for those players who hit it a little long.

  43. James George says:

    How much of the R 3 million plus will come back into racing pools?

    1. Graham Hurlstone-Jones says:

      absolutely nailed it……

      1. Graham Hurlstone-Jones says:

        My whole point all along. It has to be self sustaining. It has to be symbiotic, not parasitic. Perception or otherwise there is a problem with the way the punter is treated on an ongoing basis, the powers that be seem to revel in making everything harder from MR to track condition to fav scratchings, jockey changing, loading in sprints and on and on. The NHA certainly do not have much respect for the punter as shown by the lack of transparency, negativity and perceived hidden agenda which seems to be very unhorsey ( I just made that up ). Its a bit like Stockholm syndrome where the victim feels for the perpetrator even though you are constantly abused. The punter will just walk away eventually as we see now, too much abuse. The only reason they dropped the p6 coupling rule was to inflate the pools by making it harder to hit. Well they achieved that but at the cost of the punter….no one else. The boardroom at first must have been loving it but the punter knew back in 2013 there legs had been chopped off at the knees ( the SP is our only voice ) but punters are die hards and it is a wonder it has sustained itself thus far. It has to crash, the punter is walking away, not worth it any more. The big payouts take huge lumps out of the following pools, it has to give. More winners means they keep coming back and more goes back in. I hit a small soccer 6 which was great fun and most has gone back in because it is fun and you have decent form to study and with the odd tick thrown in as a “lurker” it pays and I will keep coming back. for some reason studying horse form has gone out of the window, I am now just guessing, that odd tick thrown in does not work in racing ( that tick was the scratching of the coupling or just the coupling before, it took the edge off the p6 cost ), the perms are expensive without bankers. The small punter only has a certain amount of change in the pocket and when that is drained non stop then you walk away. Maybe I am wrong and the small punter is not a factor and it is all about the high rollers but when I see the Epsom Derby with a 100,000 crowd or the Gold cup in Singapore with the same ( the choice of bets was eye opening but I still played on my tab account online !!. the devil i know ) they are not all high rollers but en masse they must be relevant. There is no need to wait until August, they can add a new p6 tomorrow, it is the same set up as the old one from 2013. Run the two and see what happens……or is there an agenda we don’t know about so making the above moan pointless ?

  44. Rod Mattheyse says:

    A treble at best available prices would have netted about 2.8m and about 1.4 m at SP . But where was this punter supposed to get on . If he was lucky he could have maybe got 250k of it.

    Let’s hope the tote uses data like this to promote that when you crack the code of big results the only place you get value for your luck study or whatever you want to call it is at the tote.

    By the way we’ll done punter – I don’t envy you and I don’t begrudge you the R667 I put into the pool yesterday

  45. My Frankel says:

    Yesterday I overheard two people talking about your poll. Well done for getting this issue out to us all. The one person said that Vee Moodley would never reintroduce couplings because if it was done it would affect his commissions and reduce pay out. If this is correct, the person planning the bets is doing it for his back sky and not horse racing.

    1. Editor says:

      Thanks Frankel. We will try and clarify all of these urban myths as part of this exercise

      1. Chris Swart says:

        If you do a check on the payouts yesterday they make no sense .
        Before the last leg the tickets remaining were 1.66 according to the site.
        Adding them up manually 1.64

        The pool 3,644, 483

        Tickets winning in last 1.07

        My maths says sum is 3,406,058

        Their pay out 3,398,450.60

        Someone explain the computer’s lack of integrity or simple mathematical calculations.
        I know 30% is a university pass rate but in accepting this, the winner is a fool

  46. ERIC RED says:

    Bring back the couplings when the this season finishes 1st august 2018

  47. Shivi says:

    Racing is made by our pools. Why then make it a game for only big players. Bring couplings back and enjoyment to racing. The fun is in winning, not how much. Gold circle are losing the plot

  48. Don ramlucken says:

    Bring back the coupling I. Haven’t won a p6 for past 5 years .bon

    1. Rian says:

      Geez Don, thats a long wait, I havent won a big one in real rand terms since I won the 1900 Greyville big race trifecta in 1988 I think when Honey bear won and 2 other Cape horses ran into the first 3 and paid R35000 to 3 tickets

  49. ERIC RED says:

    Bring back the couplings wef 1st August after the Gold Circle season is complete

  50. B d steele says:

    Cowboys don’t cry but the losers do.Take R2800 off the gross pool some R3600000 lost money .How many can keep on losing before they give up ( I’m Italian I surrender easy) I’m for couplings or a new bet that Leon is so vociferous about but is never forthcoming with or without payment for the good of racing which is so close to hit heart

    With light and love

  51. WILLIAM MILKOVITCH says:

    Mr Ed,

    As a perennial minimum % player I’m dead against couplings . Example, I got lucky yesterday

    Leg 1 – banker Hastag Strat ( refer to my tip on your website) Leg 2 : 4-7-9-12-13-14 – Leg 3 : every horse except Di Me and Topmast – Leg4 : 2-4-9-10-12-14 – Leg 5 : 1-3-4-6-7-12-13-15 – Leg 6 : 12-1-7 Sentido, Waywood and Minoloushe Venture

    12096 @ 1 %

    I got lucky ….but I always play that “mickey mouse” way with the big pick 6 carryover pools.

    Regards

    William

    1. James George says:

      So WILLIAM you hooked the Pick 6 for 1% whilst some one else caught it for 100% if we believe news reports.Or did you play it with the bookies?R 12 096 @ 1% with a bookie who has a limit of R 1000 000?
      Confused.

      1. hilton witz says:

        What you confused about ?its clear on the tabgold website that 1.07 winning tickets on the pick 6 with 1.06 going on waywood and 0.01 on bling swing who was scratched and the 0.01 went onto waywood tote favourite ..its clear and simple

        1. James George says:

          Ok .With all the hype around the one winner did not realise there were also percentage winners.

          1. Graham Hurlstone-Jones says:

            Very clear…..but not so simple, well done William. It looks like it all fell into place with the tote fav winning at the back which is normally where we all get screwed when the tote fav is scratched. As for banking Hashtag…..nice one……Field or Hardy for me. I think you will find a lot of people play the way you do but not at R 1200 a bet. Well done.
            I am not sure why you think couplings should stay out the P6 ? your bet is a classic example of why people are leaving in droves….no one can afford the perms that are needed to catch even 1 %, banking Hashtag and spending thousands. The pools will dramatically drop as from now……watch. No one can sustain that type of layout with no return unless that is the plan.

      2. WILLIAM MILKOVITCH says:

        Mr George, the .07 left represents 1% tickets holders times 6. Its simple maths

        1. WILLIAM MILKOVITCH says:

          Thanks Graham, I ‘m actually hooked on the PA.

          In the past 39 years,even though I consider myself to be an avid form studier ,I just don’t believe I can pick 6 winners in 6 races, especially on Saturdays card of sprints.

          I just feel that with coupling re-introduced to P6 all the chances of big payouts with disappear.

          Lets look carefully at the July card when it comes out and pretend couplings apply ….. for 1 – The July and the “Snaith runners” scenario.

          Reagrds

          William

          1. Graham Hurlstone-Jones says:

            Yep, you are right about picking 6 winners but it is the ultimate test and I am stuck on that challenge I suppose ( and like you the wealth of knowledge ? collected trying to catch them over the years ). Its funny you dont play the p6 as you say but you are against the coupling rule ? It is not lazy it is a tool to make it a little easier, you could do a cover p6 without breaking the bank. We are not doing a crossword. So many patterns and numerics over and above form ( I straight lined the p6 last year when Roy horses won 5 legs, the other leg was the only horse with R O Y in the spelling !! Lonely are the brave…..the easiest banker to find ever !!! crazy….it paid 4K x 6 ) The p6 was not that easy to hit even with the coupling rule. The big payouts did exist but not as often. What did happen was the pots were shared and you had a lot of satisfied although frustrated punters ( me and you ?! ) who would try once again to see if they could find the secret formula. The pools are big because of carryovers but you cannot miss the fact that those pots are ours whatever the size. That same money will still be spent and won during the year. So seeing one person win the big pot means the P6 will have lost over 3 million in returned revenue ( unless the winner goes mad ? ) and without even looking at the results it makes you sigh. 100 winners means R 35000 each so a lot more will come back into the pot and still drive incentive for others. Many people won the old p6 outright and life was great. Boy do I struggle with the PA……The little wins we do get ( or not so little, punters are not greedy ) keeps us at the coal face of form. That is why we come back, we are all experts but the moment the well goes dry or it is too costly to use then we find water elsewhere……..that is where the game is right now. For some reason the P6 is a nightmare ( I was going to say no champions but maybe there are too many ? ) with perms like yours the order of the day. The old p6 paid well when the scratchings and couplings did not affect the result, like Saturday as near as damn it. The pools will still be very healthy with the rule re applied, more people will play again. Now that you hit the p6 I will give the PA a bash…..cheers and yes I will be following the Snaith stable very closely any way for my PA’s……Just as footnote, I was constantly amazed how the old Fairview and Kimberly p6 would still pay well with all the couplings. It worked perfectly fine, if I liked an outsider coupled horse I would bank it in a jackpot……..Something has to change or the pools are just going to die and then we can all say we tried to make it better for the punter by making it harder ? everything was fine before they changed the rule….no one complained, it was a unilateral decision to handicap the punter as shown by firstly making it more expensive due to bigger perms and winning is now feast or famine, punters are walking away, not because they are lazy, you still study all form.

          2. Jimmy says:

            Well accessed Graham sanity needs to prevail.I agree, why handicap the punter why make the game more difficult.

          3. Graham Hurlstone-Jones says:

            The car was driving along quite nicely Jimmy until the powers that be decide that you had to carry 20 bags of cement in the back ? Still not sure how they came to the decision but it was a unilateral one, no consensus. At street level us punters were left with a horrible taste in the mouth, the decision was not celebrated but we drove on ( mind you in SA racing you just need to be in the right circle to be able to unilaterally change something without consultation ). Now the car is struggling with the extra weight and the servicing is more expensive because of it……..the car will soon break. All form needs to be studied, all scenarios have to be taken into consideration and all options used, the coupling rule just took the edge off the cost and gave you choice. William mentions the July and Snaith, well any of his 4 can win ( I am going with Elusive Silva ) the coupling will allow you to bank in a small p6 and allow you to bring in the lurker if you can find it ( oops…I meant lurkers, there is more than one nowadays… ). You can also leave couplings out…..another attack. Saying no to removing the 20 kg I find strange when you see the state of the car…..you can also deny it of course….the car looks great parked on the side of the road from a distance but they don’t drive the bugger, we do…….I love the p6 it is the greatest test to pick bankers but if they come with a coupling then thank you very much. So I bank Elusive Silva but also get Oh Susannah, African night sky and Do it again….Watch the 40/1 shot win !! I have no problem with that, I got it in my 1%.

          4. Jimmy says:

            The problem is Vee Moodley period! So as long as Vee Moodley hasn’t a say, we won’t!!

          5. Editor says:

            To be fair to Vee Moodley, he contacted us yesterday to make himself available to engage with our readers. We are considering the practical options

          6. Jimmy says:

            Ed please keep us posted and as a betting man all he will do is listen, nothing will change!!

          7. Editor says:

            Will do Jimmy

          8. Malcolm says:

            Vee Moodley or anyone else,,,,,,Before Mr.Moodley scraped the couplings, How much revenue was made with the P6 for the Tote and how much is made without the couplings ?

          9. Editor says:

            That’s a question we will ask Vee, Malcolm

      3. WILLIAM MILKOVITCH says:

        Heres another one I had on a different platform

        SCOTTSVILLE RACE 4 2018-05-26 13:35 9 / 2, 4 – 7, 9, 11 – 14, 16 / 2 – 5, 8 – 10, 13 – 16 / 2 – 4, 9 – 12, 14 / 1 – 4, 6 – 7, 9, 12 – 13, 15 / 1, 4, 7, 9, 11 – 12, 15 Pick 6 R 1705.35 R 34.00

    2. Rian says:

      Well done William, must have been your first in a while !!!!!!!

  52. WILLIAM MILKOVITCH says:

    One of the few correct decisions V Moodley has made in his term at Phumelela is to keep couplings out of the Pick 6 ..that’s only my opinion though.

    1. Jimmy says:

      William but only a few will echo your sentiment!!!

  53. Marina says:

    Bring back the couplings to Pick 6 and I will play it again.

  54. Jimmy says:

    Bring it back !!!

  55. Horace says:

    Bring back the couplings to the Pick 6, but punters may not select a scratched horse; the only time the scratching comes into play is when it is scratched at the start. Then the scratching only applies to the tote favourite and not its couplings, or the couplings of the horse that was scratched.
    Then the payouts will still be reasonable.

  56. Jess K says:

    Personally, i would prefer the no couplings rule for the Pick 6 to remain. if not, the smaller” centres (PE and Kimberley) where most runners are trained by 4 or 5 trainers would once again make it unattractive for the punter). The only change i would consider is a consolation dividend i.e. those with 5 legs correct will share a percentage (to be determined) of the pot (where there are no winners over 6 legs).

    1. Jimmy says:

      Jess you must either be an astute punter that who catches the exotics or a mug for punishment?

  57. Geoff Clark says:

    Bring the couplings back..Don’t even need to try and justify my comment.

  58. WILLIAM MILKOVITCH says:

    Spot on Jess K ..it’s that simple. And then, in my home town of Cape Town, in winter, if you with couplings select Snaith, Bass-Robinson, Ramsden and Crawford then you have 80 % of the fields.

    I cannot see for the life of me, why couplings will benefit the P6. Couplings make you “selection lazy” as well.

  59. Anver says:

    Think of the small punters that play the pick 6.those that can afford R6.those are the one’s in the thousands make pool grow not big punters …think of them playing every day hoping to win something more than the R6 invested .I SAY BRING IT BACK VEE.

    WE WANT COUPLINGS IN ALL OUR PICK 6 TO BE BROUGHT BACK.

    1. Kevin says:

      WELL SAID !!

    2. Graham Hurlstone-Jones says:

      There you go…..it took me years but eventually I had the opportunity to own a bit of a horse but up till then R 6 p6’s kept me enjoying without actually owning even though I thought Right Perogative, Olympic Duel, Pas de Quoi, ipi Tombe, Sun classique and the pocket were my horses…. its a different world owning but you never forget your roots. The p6 punter is not truly appreciated in SA…..bottom up not top down….

  60. Leon Smuts says:

    Mr Steele, my apologies. I have tried to reply to your comment at least 4 times but for some reason I cannot get a successful response to you. Hope this one will find it’s way onto the thread. I do love racing and will gladly supply products for its benefit but don’t think under the current structure that it will ever become a reality. Racing is the black sheep of the current family and would gladly be forsaken for other more profitable ventures. Cannot say that you can completely blame the operator as this is a reality world wide but they are missing a very big trick by giving racing a cold shoulder. Drop me a personal mail and I will send you details about a product that we are about to roll out internationally. [email protected] Until the fun is put back into the exotics with more affordable and competitive formats racing will continue to fall out of favour as a mass market opportunity. Nothing would give me greater satisfaction than seeing local racing turned around for the benefit of all stakeholders in the chain.

  61. Basil says:

    I still believe that the problems lie deeper and not just about couplings. The meeting for Scottsville was a poor example as the card was extremely competitive and the track is well known for upset results. An ex jockey , now trainer , told me after race 2 that Scottsville can throw a lot of “curved balls” and all bets should be taken with caution. It does however amplify that the small punter has virtually no chance of winning a Pick6 in these conditions.
    If all sorts of bets , like J’pot Mixes, can be offered I see no reason why 2 P6’s can’t be run at the same meeting. Although , democratically , the “yes” vote wins , let’s try and accommodate the wishes of all our punters so that the alleged small punters can get the couplings.

  62. Leslee says:

    Bring couplings back and increase the amount from R1 to R2

    1. Rian says:

      N0W WE TALKING

  63. Brian says:

    Hi Guys. Here is humble opinion. I am a regular punter and have been playing for more than 30 years. I strongly believe that the coupling rule must not come back at all. My pick 6 bet is R120 for 4.99%. My structure of my bet is two bankers and 7 runners in each of the other 4 legs. I have won numerous pay-outs over the course of my playing career. There have quite a few times when I received in excess of 40K for my outlay. It is like taking a double for the day with better pay-out prospects. I think most punters is too scared to take bankers in their bets. I would like to see the first timer rule scrapped as well. Take the lottery for instance. The pool keeps rolling over and people still play. The lottery also have 6 legs and people are playing straight lines with no perms. If you play straight line pick 6 bets you will win 100% of pay-out. Also, I would like to see full carry overs go onto 1 race meeting. Imagine playing in a pool of 10 million Rand. Bigger pools will attract more people to the game. I have seen punters complain when favorites win and the pay-out is minimal. You cannot have your bread buttered both sides. Please do not bring back the Coupling Rule!!!!

    1. Jimmy says:

      Brian your humble comment is appreciated however here is the problem u are only spending the R120 for your 4.99% your exposure is far less than the bigger punters who are the life blood of the game added to this Brian please spend R1200 on P6 and let me know whether your approach to bankers is the same? When u have your 40k wins u are still only spending your R120 so a large portion leave leaves the system add to this your analogy about the lotto doesn’t sit well with me simply because the lotto is buying into a 40 million people pool whereas the P6 is but a small fraction of that.Brian the exotic bets ie the JP and P6 are under massive pressure not only because of the open bet but because they have become almost impossible to catch hence the regular carry overs.Personally I am not in the market for a lotto style bet as there are far more losers than winners.

    2. Graham Hurlstone-Jones says:

      Ok, so you dont see what is happening ? why this conversation exists ? revenue is dropping for all the reasons you just mentioned. It took a while but it has arrived. It sounds like you have the touch though. Your strong support for a pure p6 is understood but to compare lottery to the refined art of looking for two bankers every P6 with a R 120 layout each time I dont get, its apples and oranges. The lottery will not grow, it has peaked a long time ago. I pride myself on picking bankers, I am good at it but I refuse to put in fields unless obvious…..cost. My outlays have gone up and my returns have dropped because I am putting in fields and I hear lots of experts ? who say the same thing, those pesky maidens, handicaps etc, this is the same for most of the 30 year veterans of the game I have enjoyed being around over the years. This is not a cry for a hand out but a hand up……its in everyones interest. More choice is a great idea and you should push keeping the new p6….we want the old one back with some bells and whistles if the operators want revenue back up…..They must be proactive, it works….

    3. WILLIAM MILKOVITCH says:

      100 % agree with you Brian ..100 %.

  64. Basil says:

    Brian , it’s hard enough to find one banker never mind two. It’s made difficult ,( as previously stated that 90% of P6 races comprise of Maidens and MR’s of 60 to 90,) by the fact that the purpose of MR ratings is to get all horses to finish in a straight line. This makes it very difficult to find bankers which as a result makes small punters despondent and cease taking P6’s albeit that they love to have a wager every week. Sure , it’s good to structure your bet wisely but sometimes you need to take the “field” and not just 7 horses . This in turn puts pressure on your bankers unless you are a big punter. I am now prepared only to waste R60 to R80 every week on P6’s and concentrate more now on Jackpots and All to Come wins and places as a curved ball will come somewhere in the 6 legs of the Pick 6.

  65. Stephen Carter says:

    Coupling rule should be reinstated. My strategy is to find 3 bankers and play wide the other legs. Easier to apply this strategy with couplings. You can still earn good dividends with outliers winning the wide legs.

  66. Jurgs says:

    This poll reminds me of the days of VCR’s and the choice between Betamax and VHS. The Betamax crowd were adamant they had the superior format ( it may well have been who knows ) and in the face of less and less offerings, steadfastly stuck to their guns and missed out of many new releases and over time were forced to make the change.

    Compare the P6. The proof is in the pudding when pool sizes are examined. It is indisputable that the pools are shrinking. The rocket has malfunctioned and is plunging back to earth. Ground control to Major Vee, time to make some drastic changes.

  67. Roderick Mattheyse says:

    The market has shifted to the open bet, for exotics, and fixed odds for straight and multiple bets.

    Whilst “growth” has been below inflation is has not dwindled as it appears – for this the operators are to blame – to stay afloat (Gold Circle) and to continue thriving (Phumelela) they have veered from their core business and their single focus is on finding alternative revenue streams

    Price and Service – the bag boys are ahead of the game at this stage – offer them a risk free return for their exceptional customer service

  68. Brian says:

    Guys. The Pick 6 on Saturday in Scottsville was apparently won by a punter that made 3 bankers and his outlay was R2,800 for a 99% return. Without risk there can be no reward. Fortunes favors the Brave. I won the Pick 6 in December 1996 with a R12 perm (10c unit) and I collected R89,000.I believe at the time there was 2 winning tickets. The issue I have with taking the field in a bet is that it is the easy/lazy way out. In most cases the favorite wins in these races that looks difficult and you get hit in the races that looks easy. My philosophy is that if a horse is being punted in the media as a winner you might as well bet against it. If these hot pot favorites win too often it will kill the bookmakers. There is an old saying that the bank man always win. I do not gamble in Casinos nor do I play the State Lottery. I only play horse racing and I enjoyed it since I was 13 years old walking around with my Dad on Milnerton Race Course. I know some people whom have played the lottery for the last 18 years and have won nothing. My strategy is aim small, miss small. My point is become a master of some bet, whether it be Pick 6, Jackpot, PA or Bipot. People are drawn to high risk. Stick to your formula and have a budget. The new generation of punters don’t want to go to Totes and Race courses. They want to play from their laptops and cell phones. The marketing side needs to improve to educate people on how racing really work. Well I am just an ordinary punter.

    1. Graham Hurlstone-Jones says:

      I think you will find most small time punters play exactly the way you do. We all understand the risk and reward statement…..completely understand it. Whether it is a R 1200 bet or a R 24 bet I can guarantee you the same diligence, thought and a bit of mojo was put in. I totally agree with your field statement. This why we are all feeling the pain of what is happening at the moment, it is not a few unlucky punters. Favorites are subjective according to form they have, we dont want favs all the time either, but we do need champions. There has to be a Senna or a Hamilton……A Nadal……Ronaldo, all our horses seem to be champs at the moment. It is all well and good telling us thats how it goes but then that attitude will empty the pots very quickly. Something has changed and punters are walking away, they are disillusioned, no more small change left, cleaned out. Is that the idea ? I bet online and there is a wealth of information available, the marketing you talk about should be more choice for the punter…….3 bankers ?? R 2800 ??……..good luck with that, he deserves everything he gets.

    2. Malcolm says:

      fortune favours the person who can spend R2,800 on a pic 6! what about the person who only has R28 to spend….any chance the boys from Telly Track will help in getting rid of couplings ? Come on Dee”s , after your R4800 P6 disaster at the weekend couplings would have helped you….

      1. Roderick Mattheyse says:

        potentially he/she could have collected 34k if the same structure of bet was applied

  69. Max says:

    Hi all there is just one thing that I want to say what ever the decision I hope it benefits the small punter , I play at a local tab outlet in the poor part of pmb , and I witness everyday how the poor man loses his money . Thanks Max Rajah

    1. Jimmy says:

      Max i am not suprised by your comment how is it possible that the poor man has any chance with a no coupling P6 or JP for that matter!Well said Max.

  70. dieter roth says:

    Couplings or no couplings , doesnt matter… but they need to look at rules on scratched horses after the closing of P6. Should be included irrespective of whether favourite wins. Also as mentioned before, a consolation P6 ( any 5 legs) is not a bad idea

    1. Graham Hurlstone-Jones says:

      I will fight you on couplings but you are absolutely right on all the other stuff especially the 5 out of 6. I think it is a great idea We don’t want carryovers we want payouts. Every pot should be paid out, not keep piling it up and then only 0,3 or 1.2 % pay out in other words only a few winners……It is cynical of the industry to see it any other way….its not their money. They should be falling over backwards hoping we win, not trying to make it as hard as possible, it already is. The fav and scratching ruling as well you are spot on. Basil also mentions the 2 p6 thing…..yes please. My biggest problem when it comes to information is how a horse shortens dramatically after the p6 has gone off, it could be laying off but not in the second or third leg, that to me makes me feel I have been conned……It is tough enough to water the garden in a drought but when someone is standing on the hosepipe on purpose, the garden will die. Maybe there is a reason for this because it is all very reactive. The industry comes across as the nasty stepmother who will take your christmas toys away because you are enjoying them, they don’t see that if you give them more toys there is more fun and laughter in the house….win or lose.

  71. Basil says:

    All this deliberation , hope u get some response?? The simple answer is run both forms of P6. If they can’t start in the same race have one starting in the 1st leg of the PA and the other one race later.

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