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Carryovers – There Is Planning!

Article of March 2021 brought forward at request

There was no Pick 6 carryover on the Khaya Stables/ BSA / Jonsson Workwear Gr1 Cape Derby racemeeting at Kenilworth on the Cape Summer Season climax on 27 February. But that was for good reason, explains TAB in a response to the Sporting Post.

The absent Pick 6 carryover riled the faithful few and we had our own questions.

We  received the inevitable frustrated prompts from our life members – the folk who hang in, some when there is almost nothing left to hang onto anymore.

Depression demons, suffering in silence

The silence from the racing operator and TAB was noted at the time.

And it’s an ironic pearl, but the most important aspect of communication is hearing what isn’t said – is it not?

The simple frustration, and it’s not parochialism,  for us and our staunch readers was that the Classic Day Pick 6 carryover on tomorrow’s Turffontein card was announced almost two weeks prior to the meeting, and all of six days ahead of Cape Derby day.

Yet nothing was forthcoming about the Kenilworth Pick 6. Some of us actually prefer to do our tom on Cape racing.

We asked the leadership hierarchy if they knew who actually cares about information? Joe Soap, the R6 bettor in the tote? The sponsors who came to the party for the big day? The media? Owners who are happy to buy horses, despite stakes? Trainers? The long-suffering Breeders?

 

All we were trying to achieve was simply to get answers on a routine question. But they – them, our leaders – turned the no real news into a monster by their silence

We suggested to them, particularly when it comes to the holy cow of carryovers, that the conspiracy machine churns out the theories. And can we actually blame the customer?

All stonewalling does is that the near zero confidence in the hierarchy just gets reinforced and perpetuated, as that is the way the consumer is always treated – and most of us are sick for the game anyway. So we are not exactly considering taking up hiking or boating on a Saturday aftrenoon. They have a captive, albeit depleted, market – for how long?

Full marks to Kenilworth Racing (or Cape Racing as they are now known) Chairman Bradley Ralph, who acknowledged our communication and undertook to revert with an explanation.

TAB kindly responded a week later with the explanation that grades of races are but one of several factors taken into account in determining the allocation of Pick 6 carryovers.

They pointed out that others include stature of the raceday, historical tote turnovers, and the necessity of at least one month-end Pick 6 carryover every month (excluding December) in order to stimulate excitement and interest at a point the most horseplayers have the discretionary spend to participate.

TAB no longer allocates Pick 6 carryovers in advance and makes up shortfalls if necessary.

What apparently has been agreed among the operators is a provisional list of Pick 6 carryover days and amounts, which range from a current maximum R5 million for mega days like the Cape Met and Vodacom Durban July, down to R1 million.

This is the minimum carryover amount required to attract international bettors, whose bets nowadays, they confirm, collectively comprise the lion’s share of any Pick 6 carryover pool.

The provisional Pick 6 carryover list is based in the first instance on the average annual total of Pick 6 carryovers and the reserve is monitored constantly in terms of how much money needs to be available in order to fund these provisional carryovers for at least the next 90 days.

Obviously if there are insufficient reserves at some point, a provisional carryover may have to be scrapped or the carryover amount reduced.

Conversely if there is an unexpected surplus, a provisional carryover amount may be increased or a carryover added to a race meeting not on the provisional list.

Bottom line is that there is not an infinite amount of Pick 6 carryover money available and carryover reserves for other bet types are deployed to stimulate betting interest in important race meetings that do not have Pick 6 carryovers.

Hence the Cape Derby meeting had a R250 000 Jackpot One carryover and a R250 000 Quartet carryover on the Derby itself.

Now all we need is a breakdown of what’s in the magical pot that we were once told by a top dog doesn’t really exist.

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21 comments on “Carryovers – There Is Planning!

  1. Hilton Witz says:

    Talking of carryovers I am still waiting for an explanation as to what happens to the interest accrued from carryover monies which belong to the punters until such time a winner or winners are declared- what is the reason that an answer has not been forthcoming, it would seem that the powers that be have decided not to be forthcoming on this one?

  2. Cecil Pienaar says:

    Ag nee k#k storie. Blah blah, f*k sommer upset again.
    Geez, besides the Derby itself almost all graded and listed races. This day had all the criteria – but because Punters expected it, we were shown 2nd year in a row who is in charge – ex circus performers

    Thanks to SP enquiring, Graham HJ and myself would like to know how much exactly is in the Punters c/o kitty.

    Albert Falls Greetings

  3. Marina Munro says:

    I would like to know why payouts are sometimes reduced. Today in the first race at Turffontein Tip of the Spear won. As he crossed the line the tote was showing a payout of R32.60 for the win and R8.30 for the place. When I looked again it’s showing R30 something for a win and R8.20 for a place. Surely when the race is closed the amount showing should be paid?

  4. Washington says:

    Marina Munro, I have been asking myself the same question! This happens frequently more especially with the Gauteng TAB. Can somebody please explain why that happens when the Closed information is posted?
    Regards
    Surprised Punter.

    1. Editor says:

      Washington Monnasilo

  5. Shaik omar Ebrahim says:

    You will never get ur answer for tat it’s been many years the same ? being asked n now answer.

  6. Philip Goldberg says:

    Lets call a spade a spade.
    If this is how the operator is treating carryover money, by using it to fund its operations, and not putting it into a seperate fund, is he not stealing from his customer, the hand that feeds him.
    Surely this is a contravention of how a totalisator should be run, and why they were granted a licence?
    Why is the gambling board not aware and investigating the action?
    Perhaps its time this licence be taken away, and given to an organisation that is trust worthy.
    Can you imagine the overheads that would be saved, as this organisation runs its operations legally, and pays racing their cut.
    Also, when carryover cash is injected into the pool, is it a cash donation, or is the equivalent given to the buddies in vouchers, to fill out and have free bets?
    Asking for a friend…

  7. WILLIAM MILKOVITCH says:

    Punters are less interested in the programme detail as to how much the TOTE have planned to appropriate to a meeting.

    We want to know the perpetual/running total of carryover money in the kitty. Punters have a right to see that changing total that doesn’t belong to the TOTE.

    Guarantees are a misnomer & is nothing short of a fib.

    Never have the TOTE suffered a shortfall resulting from a guaranteed amount advertised, never !

    Too avoid vagueness, here is a example as to what the punters demand:-

    Opening balance of carryover money inherited by Mr. Evans : 100 +12 (Vaal carryover Monday) +9 (EP carryover Tuesday) – 16 (Turffontein added Saturday) – 11(Scottsville added Sunday) = 94 in the kitty to kick off the next week.

    I broke it down, in nursery school style, for those amateurs formerly known as Phumelela, the current TOTE & and for Charles Savage to explain to the Oppenheimer Sisters.

    With all this deception disseminated by previous tote operators, punters endure earfuls from wise guys like Bernard Kantor about the evils of the open bet & those people on the Interbet promo lecturing us about putting our rand back into the tote.

    What a cheek schooling us about TOTE LOYALTY.

  8. Neill de Bruyn says:

    Hi mr Ed, is it possible that you can publish this article again at your convenience. Looking at the no of tickets going forward at Turfontein in the P6 last leg today, the TAB betting app had it as 0.24 tickects going forward on the winner no 1. The pool was R698 391.80. The amount eventually stipulated as payout is R529 905.55. Either my arithmetic must be failing me, or the tote’s arithmetic must be failing them. This is not the first time I notice what looks like an apparent discrepancy. I suspect the carry over and not payout should be R529 905.55 in terms of the live ticket forecast. Can we have an explanation, perhaps I’m not interpreting the live tickets correctly (I made screen shots). I’m also trying to track all the c/o amounts which go into the “kitty” for the next prestige meeting, but this is no easy task. Transparency please 4 Racing.

    1. Editor says:

      Hi Neill
      We brought it forward to home page – better?
      Will retweet

  9. Cecil Pienaar says:

    ???? Graham H J will agree – Carryovers are planned !

    1. Editor says:

      That’s a clever play on it, Cecil 🙂

  10. Neill de Bruyn says:

    Cecil you know we underestimate the guys in charge – reading through this article again, I noticed that month end December is not on the list for carry overs. The reason in my mind is quite simple – whose got money after the holidays?
    So Cape Racing is going to have their big big payday on Met day – doesnt really matter anyhow, they are part of 4Racing (or rather they have an agreement with 4Racing).
    I’m just wondering how the Gold Circle carry overs work – I mean a Gold Circle race meeting carry over can only be used for another GC meeting ?
    Oh, the intricacies of our racing industry ! .

    1. Editor says:

      Hi Neill
      Irrespective of racing operators, the carryovers were mixed nationally. Not sure who decides what goes where and no answer from Cape Racing why two Gr1 racedays missed out.

  11. Cecil Pienaar says:

    Hello Neill. I also read it again, and still feel the same as my original comment 05/03… No doubt CT is treated “soos n Stiefkind ”

    Neill talking Met, let’s hope it get’s a sponsor. Geez this is our 2nd biggest Race in SA…

  12. Hilton Witz says:

    Hi William, your example of the breakdown is exactly what punters deserve but you have omitted one important calculation, after the 94 should read ( PLUS INTEREST ACCRUED from the punter’s carryover monies) . That interest belongs to the punters and should be included in the payout of the eventual winners. After never having had an explanation to my enquiry it is quite apparent that the authorities in charge have no answers. It would be interesting to know how the auditors classify interest earned on someone else’s money, so much for transparency!

  13. Neill de Bruyn says:

    Hello Cecil, don’t know why J&B seems unwilling to sponsor the Met next year. Perhaps they took a bashing with all the booze bans we’ve had with covid.
    More realistically, race sponsorships are perhaps not so attractive anymore with the lack of decent crowds and SABC not broadcasting races.

  14. WILLIAM MILKOVITCH says:

    Good evening Cecil, apologies for hi-jacking your conversation chain but no business wants to be a banner boy for a Cape Racing day.

    There’s just not enough commercial return in it for the would-be Justerini & Brooks sponsor.

    Check out how well filled the Vaal card is tomorrow. I argue that field sizes and not field quality is what the race-by-race punters wants, thereby boosting turnover, which is what every owner & trainers is crying about,

    Maybe The 2021 Purity Metropolitan, with a proviso that absolutely no crying is allowed on the day.

  15. Cecil Pienaar says:

    Morning William ????. I start my day with a huge smile after reading your post. Good one, have fun at The Vaal today, PA time, hope you make Big Bucks

    Neill, booze and ciggies advertising / sponsorships not allowed anymore and they broke as well ????

    Lekker Dag. Albert Falls Greetings

  16. WILLIAM MILKOVITCH says:

    Good morning Hilton & SP Carryover Bloggers,

    Of course you’re right Hilton. I had brought up this very point about the running kitty of all carryovers & where it sits in the books of Phumelela & now 4Racing.

    I suspect that both would & will state that the money does not sit in their Current Account but is held in some sort of a Call Account.

    I very much doubt if it has ever been placed in a Trust Account of a fiduciary nature.

    In addition, I anticipate that in the licence agreement between the Betting Operator & the relevant Gambling Board there most likely isn’t a stipulation about how and were the carryover monies must be ‘nursed’.

    Furthermore, is the government entitled to their share of the tax once the bet (Pick6) is struck or when it is actually a winning ticket ?

    Good morning Mr. Editor, I think in casual conversation more than a year ago, we chatted about the ‘holding’ of the Carryover money, interest earned and the rights of the punters relating to the betting operators fully disclosing the Running or Perpetual Total.

    Surely, that’s a basic step to building integrity, never mind regulatory consideration ?

  17. Neill de Bruyn says:

    Very interesting William. Now I’m starting to wonder if there is a double takeout by the tote once the carryover comes “into circulation” again. And surely the Gambling Board is’nt entitled to another round of tax either. Poor punter.

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